Q&A: Deborah Lipstadt returns to Emory

Content Warning: This article contains references to antisemitism, Islamophobia and racism. 

Deborah Lipstadt, one of only four people ever named as Emory University Distinguished Professor and the former U.S. Special Envoy to Monitor and Combat Antisemitism, will return to Emory at the end of this month. She is the only current holder of the professorship, which Emory has awarded to Lipstadt, former U.S. President Jimmy Carter, author Salman Rushdie and poet Kevin Young.

Lipstadt, who founded the Tam Institute for Jewish Studies and served as its first director from 1998-2008, came to Emory 30 years ago because of its “distinguished” Jewish Studies program. She said that Emory was a place she wanted to be and has had a “great experience” in her time at the University.

Beyond Emory, Lipstadt was a historical consultant to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. The biographical film “Denial” (2016) was based on Lipstadt’s book “History on Trial: My Day in Court with a Holocaust Denier” (2005) about her experience as the defendant against Holocaust denier David Irving in a libel suit.

Ahead of her return, Lipstadt sat down with The Emory Wheel to share her perspective on antisemitism at Emory, last year’s nationwide campus protests and her hopes for students and the University.

The Q&A has been edited for clarity and length.

The Emory Wheel: How have you seen antisemitism within Emory?

Lipstadt: Well, I haven’t been at Emory now for three years, so I can’t really comment on Emory specifically, and I don’t like to surmise. But I have seen the tsunami of antisemitism, and more than a tsunami of antisemitism, I’ve seen the normalization of antisemitism. That it becomes okay to go on [The Joe Rogan Experience] and say overtly antisemitic things. I’ve just seen a lot of it around in places where you wouldn’t have seen it, where it might have existed before, but now it’s in more mainstream places, and that’s very disturbing.

TEW: Reflecting on your time as U.S. Special Envoy, what goes into the day-to-day?

Lipstadt: It could be a day where I start off in the morning talking about something going on in Poland and then I turn to something going on in London, and then a trip I have to have. It could be any one of a dozen different things. It moved very quickly. It was a lot of things happening, and I really enjoyed that because it was just so diverse. 

It could be if there was an antisemitic event in a country, it could be if we were trying to put together a resolution or a new program, it could be working with the administration on a statement they were making that would include some reference to antisemitism. It could be sometimes unpredictable, sometimes I knew exactly what was going to happen. It was a lot of diplomatic meetings, a lot of meetings with ambassadors, foreign ministers if I was traveling abroad or ambassadors here in Washington. It was very, very variegated and very exciting.

TEW: How will your time as ambassador influence your interactions at Emory?

Lipstadt: I’ll be able to bring to students more real-life experience. What was it like, sitting in the Oval Office talking about antisemitism with the president? What was it like talking to the secretary of state? What was it like speaking before people at intelligence agencies, Department of Justice, FBI, about this issue, talking to them, hearing from them? Too often in the academic world, we live in the rarefied ivory tower, where we think that’s real life. And I got to see a little more of what passes for real life coming from Washington.

TEW: What courses will you teach after you return?

Lipstadt: Well, I won’t teach for about the first year and a half because I’m going to be finishing up a book on my experience, but I probably will do some seminars, maybe a freshman seminar on antisemitism, the history of antisemitism, and maybe, a course on the Holocaust, but that’s yet to be determined.

TEW: How will you serve as an adviser to University President Gregory Fenves and Emory College of Arts and Sciences Dean Barbara Krauthamer?

Lipstadt: When there are issues that come up [on] how to address certain issues what my perspective is, I’m just going to be freely available to the leadership of the University. They’ve been so gracious to me that anything I can do to bring back and help them understand a very complicated conspiracy theory, because antisemitism is not just a prejudice, but it’s a conspiracy theory, I’m anxious to do. 

I have great, great affection for Emory. I have tremendously enjoyed my time here. I’ve grown as a scholar, as a person, as a teacher. The idea that I’m now going to have a chance to give back in this manner, over and above interaction with students and colleagues, is very, very meaningful to me.

TEW: Could you elaborate a little more about your perspective and your characterization of it as a conspiracy theory?

Lipstadt: Well, antisemitism is like prejudice. Prejudice means you look at someone, and if they do something bad, “Oh, that’s how that group all is. That’s how you people,” whether you’re talking about Blacks, you’re talking about gays, you’re talking about Asians, etc. And if someone does something good from that group, “So that’s one of the good ones. That’s one of the exceptions to the rule.” The other thing about most prejudices is that you want to keep the person down. You think about the term that racists use specifically in the South about Black people would be that “they got uppity, they moved out of their station. The station is down below.” Or you called the grown man boy, because he should be remembered that he’s boy and you’re man, that kind of thing. 

And you have that with antisemitism, looking down on Jews. “Jews spread disease. Jews are disgusting, especially vis-a-vis ultra-orthodox Jews.” But there’s an added element to antisemitism. It doesn’t exist in the other prejudices, and that’s the conspiracy theory, the notion that Jews are conspiring as a small group, smaller number, but smart in a crafty way, in an evil kind of way of conspiring to do harm to non-Jews. So if you have an enemy that you know is conspiring to do harm to you, your obligation is to stop them by any means necessary. And that’s where it’s a conspiracy theory.

TEW: Why did you turn down an offer to teach a course next year at Columbia University (N.Y.)?

Lipstadt: [The role] wasn’t to teach this year, but to come back to Emory, and then maybe in a year and a half go to Columbia just for a semester. I looked at the things that were going on at Barnard College, which is a constituent part of Columbia, and some of the reactions of Columbia to the overt antisemitism there. I just thought my coming may be used as a fig leaf so they can say, “How did we deal with antisemitism? We brought back Deborah Lipstadt.” 

I don’t want to be used as a fig leaf or as a cover. I had very positive conversations with Columbia University Interim President Katrina Armstrong, very amicable, but I just decided now was not the time for me to go there. It got a lot of attention. I must say, it stirred up quite a hornet’s nest in the press, especially with everything going on in Columbia now. Barnard seems out of control, or those protesters seem out of control.

TEW: What are your thoughts on the protests on Emory’s campus last spring? 

Lipstadt: I watched them from afar. I wasn’t there, so again, it’s hard for me to comment any more than what I saw in any other university. I’ve been struck by what I’ve heard attributed to President Fenves and other university presidents, after some of the protests and the encampments, laying down the rule. No encampments on campus. The University has a policy that doesn’t allow for encampments on the campus. No wearing of masks on campus unless you’re ill … But if you’re asked to ID yourself by an official, you do that. 

But, for people to walk around with masks, they can do things and then you can’t identify them. They can break the law. They can attack you, and so no masks. No demonstrating in the middle of the night, keeping students up. 

This should be issue-neutral. It doesn’t matter if I’m talking about abortion, climate change, Cop City, Gaza, whatever it might be. There’s certain rules and I think that those are important.

People are talking about free speech. No one is talking about cutting off the free speech of protesters. We have that pesky thing called the First Amendment, and it protects people to say unpleasant, or what we might think are unpleasant or unpopular, ideas and that should absolutely remain as it is. But that doesn’t give you the right to stop another student from studying. That doesn’t give you the right to stop the university from functioning. That doesn’t give you the right to block the entrance to an academic hall, a dormitory or a library, as we’ve seen on other campuses. I think free speech absolutely, but that doesn’t give you the chance to deny free speech to other people. So if someone’s trying to say something, you can’t drown them out. Yes, legally, that’s free speech, etc, but that means you’re afraid of hearing their ideas.

TEW: There have been instances of antisemitism and Islamophobia on campus. What do you think about these sentiments as you return to Emory?

Lipstadt: On many campuses, we’ve seen a great deal of antisemitism. We’ve seen far less of Islamophobia. I’m against Islamophobia. I think Islamophobia, hatred of Muslims, persecution, discrimination against Muslims is totally unacceptable. But what we’ve seen on most campuses and throughout the United States is far more instances of antisemitism and it worries me a lot. All discrimination and all prejudice worries me, but of course, this sudden normalization of antisemitism. I think that’s something I really want to stress, that things that wouldn’t have been said in earlier days or expressed in venues not so long ago are now okay to say in public and that’s very disturbing. 

I have met many university students, I haven’t met Emory students, but I haven’t been on campus for a while, who have felt obligated to change their routine. To take the Mezuzah, the little thing you put on the outside a Jewish home with blessings and verses from the Hebrew scriptures, from the Torah, to move it inside their room. Because students see “Oh, a Mezuzah, must be a Jew” and start knocking on [the door] at all hours of [the] night.

I’ve seen Jewish students who are afraid to wear the Jewish star. I’ve seen Jewish students, again, not this is not Emory, this is across the United States and in other countries, who when they go to Friday night services at a Hillel, they don’t tell their roommates where they’re going. They don’t tell their suitemates where they’re going. They just slip out and go. I have seen students who’ve been harassed in class and forced to [answer] “Oh you’re a Jew, explain Israel’s policies.” As if you ask the Chinese person or student of Chinese origin, “Oh, tell me about what's going on in China,” and you’re holding them responsible. That’s not being politically supportive of one side or the other. That’s antisemitism.

TEW: What can we do to address antisemitism at Emory moving forward?

Lipstadt: We have to take it seriously. Take antisemitism, in general, take it seriously. Speak out. Condemn and not say, “Oh, what are they complaining about? What’s the big deal?” It is a serious issue. Let me say this, no country which has tolerated extensive antisemitism has survived as a democracy and a place of rule of law. Think of Weimar, Germany, … the entity in Germany between the two world wars. 

Antisemitism is like the flashing yellow light at the traffic stop — red is coming, something dangerous is coming. It may not be more antisemitism, but it’s bad stuff.

Antisemitism is the harbinger, the announcer of bad things to come. So it has to be taken care of, taken seriously. Whether you’re Jewish or not Jewish, it doesn’t matter. It’s a threat to democracy. It’s a threat to the rule of law. It’s a threat to security and stability.

TEW: How can Emory community members best navigate the current political climate

Lipstadt: To educate yourself, do not become lemmings. “Someone said this; I’m just going to follow it.” It’s a complicated situation. Educate yourself. See what’s going on. Don’t chant things if you don’t really know what their implication is. On too many campuses, I’ve seen smart kids acting like little robots. … When you ask them the details of things, they can’t even answer. Do what you’re at the university to do. Get an education on issues. Speak out on prejudice, all kinds of prejudice, including antisemitism. And don’t say, “Oh, it’s coming from the left, or I’m on the left and that’s coming from the right. I’ll criticize it, but I won’t criticize the antisemitism from the people next to you.” It’s especially the people you’re closest with if they engage in antisemitism that you should respond to.

TEW: What are some of your future goals for Emory?

Lipstadt: Just to enhance the learning, to challenge my students, to challenge them to think about issues and not to simply parrot what I’m saying. I want to challenge them and I want to be challenged by them.

If you or someone you know experienced hateful language or slur use, you can call the Emory Police Department at (404) 727-6111 or reach Emory’s Counseling and Psychological Services at (404) 727-7450. You can reach the Atlanta Police Department at (404) 614-6544 and the Lines for Life Racial Equity Support Line from 1 p.m. to 10 p.m. at (503) 575-3764. 

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